That does not mean that auditors aren’t pursuing these isssues. Your initial assertion stands invalidated. Your intitial assertion/accusation was, “the way military contractors are allowed to pad their bills

I take issue with the word “allowed” because auditors working around the clock to NOT allow padding. Therefore Jim’s assertion to me is incorrect. It’s like using the word “target” when saying “targeting journalists”. Words mean things and Jim’s phrases and assertions are bunk because of the words he is using.

Last federal fiscal year the U.S. government didn’t know where or who got 24 Billion. Jim asked, “You tell me if they’re actually being serious, about finding out where our money went.

I don’t know Jim if people are “serious” but there are people who’se jobs are dedicated to these efforts and while I say “YES” they are failing …. again.. the words you are using when you are making your assertions makes your assertions bunk.

Your 12:12 post was a good attempt and I applaud your attempt. It was a reasonable attempt at giving your views which liberals have lately seemed to abandon. I don’t share your views on the responsible parties as the “experts” have been allowed to make the decisions during and after the invasion in my view. I do not think that Bush is micromanaging and making the decisions. I view this as normal government decision making flaws. Nobody is perfect and when there are a multitude of “experts” weighing in in government and making decisions you’ll see decisions that the U.S. people wish weren’t made. I think there are pros and cons to the Iraqi army argument. I’m not sure of your qualifications Jim but I’m not convinced either way and I see your list as part of your obsession and lack of realization that the government will make decisions all the time and during war people will get hurt and killed. In general I believe DIFFERENTLY than you. I believe that this reconstruction is going better than I thought it would and better than past precedents with countries like Japan and Germany even. If we pass the 7 year mark for reconstruction in Japan maybe I’ll think differently. This is why I mentioned no war is perfect and this is why I think my view based on realism and past precedent shows that my realistic expectations has me thinking that you’ll be talking till you’re blue in the face but unable to convince many that your argument is the best. Robert was already convinced. Maybe someday he’ll see what conservatives are trying to say. Maybe not. I was once liberals and converted in 1991 and had the same obsessive pattern of making inaccurate accusations based on my faulty premises.

Jim wrote in response to my question if I was accurate with a deflection argument, “Let’s see – am I accurate in saying that you wanted 2000+ soldiers dead, and 15,000 wounded, and $200 billion spent, with no WMD’s found, and worldwide terrorism increased?

I could ask Jim, where did I state that as any of my wants. But the ORIGINAL QUESTION STILL STANDS.

In my 10:23 PM post I wrote:

Jim wrote, “That’s not my wish. What I wish is that we weren’t wasting soldiers’ bodies and lives, and hundreds of billions of dollars there. That’s not worth the removal of a contained and disarmed dictator, when we’re already fighting a war in Afghanistan on top of it.

I’m glad you clarified [see what I bolded]. Sounds like you didn’t want the “removal” of Saddam. Am I inaccurate now?

Now Jim. Please tell me that you weren’t saying that you “didn’t want the ‘removal’ of Saddam. Where am I wrong in my statement. I believe I’m correct based on what I bolded.

You spanked that Baklave person good.

Every point you made, he tried to counterpoint with obfuscation. Nice job ripping through his straw men and telling it like it is.

Kudos to you!!

Well, the problem is that those at the top are making awful decisions. And those decisions will continue to be awful until they are no longer making those decisions.

But, leaving that source of problems aside, here’s what should be done:

a) fire Halliburton for at best gross incompetence, and at worst deliberate and destructive fraud. Ditto for Custer-Battle, and every other proven defrauder of the US.

b) instead of hiring politically-connected US companies to subcontract work to Iraqi companies, hire the Iraqi companies directly – both saving US taxpayer money, and pumping money directly into the Iraqi economy.

This also puts an Iraqi face directly on the reconstruction, and lessens anger directed at outsiders.

c) get the lights turned back on, and the rest of the infrastructure working

d) bulldoze Abu Ghraib. Have only trained police and trained jail guards in charge of Iraqi troops.

e) Fire Iranian spy Chalabi.

I wonder why you can’t let go of the past as what is done is done and realize some of the successes along with your dissappointments.

Because a) the successes are not worth what they’ve been bought with, and b) accountability for mistakes is the only possible way to move on from mistakes.

A perfect war would be no dead people.

A good war, would be one that was fought against an actual current enemy, and which at least left us safer than before it.

I don’t know of anyone who thinks things went perfectly. But I do see people who are overwhelmingly negative (like yourself – just my opinion).

It doesn’t make me happy to think we’re in a predicament. I just look at it, and that’s what I see.

I think if Clinton had made this much of a hash of things, all the conservatives and Republicans in the country would be howling for his head – and rightfully so.

In case you’ve forgotten, they killed thousands of US citizens in 9/11.

Within a dozen weeks of this attack, President Bush said, “I don’t know where Bin Laden is, and I don’t care” — because he was preparing to invade Iraq. To remind us of who they are, Al Qaeda then attacked our friends and allies in Madrid, London, and Bali (twice!) The Administration said late last year that they know where Bin Laden is but aren’t going to do anything about it.

Meanwhile, we have wasted a trillion dollars (do you have any idea of how much a trillion dollars is?), killed thousands of American kids and tens of thousands of Iraqis, and maimed tens of thousands of American soldiers and countless Iraqis — for nothing! What harm did Iraq ever do America before we invaded their country?

Your President Bush’s Administration stood up and lied to America, talked about “imminent threats” and “mushroom clouds” while knowing all along that Saddam was a tinpot little dictator with a pathetic army that would collapse in a few days, leaving America to face four years and more of costly, demoralizing guerilla warfare.

Bush’s mad obsession with Iraq is a deep, self-inflicted wound in the side of America that bleeds dead American soldiers every day, while Bin Laden, all but forgotten by our Mad King George, walks free to strike again at his pleasure and gloat at us over the airwaves, an inspiration to generations of future terrorists.

Let’s see – am I accurate in saying that you wanted 2000+ soldiers dead, and 15,000 wounded, and $200 billion spent, with no WMD’s found, and worldwide terrorism increased?

No. I would be twisting your words to say that, wouldn’t I?

The invasion itself wasn’t necessary, but it was executed with skill and excellence. Bush didn’t interfere there.

The many problems we are in stem from the post-invasion phase. These include:

1) cashiering Shinsecki, even before the invasion, for suggesting we needed more soldiers to keep the peace afterwards – which has turned out to be true.

2) not stationing guards to protect any government files, except those in Iraq’s ministry of oil – thus leading Iraqis to conclude that’s all we’re interested in.

3) not planning ahead to keep the peace, by training and shipping in police officers to deal with Iraqis after the collapse of authority.

4) utterly ignoring Colin Powell’s very prescient report, and disbanding the standing Iraqi army, thus filling Iraq with humiliated, broke, angry, unemployed trained soldiers

5) The numerous ways in which Rumsfeld has disrespected the troops, by refusing to get butts moving or fired for body armor, vehicle shielding

I don’t know if Bush interfering here would make things better or worse; but that’s not his only option. His best option would be to fire Rumsfeld yesterday, and get someone competent in his place; but that would require admitting a mistake.

Or will you admit that your zeal is causing an obsession that helps you get things wrong?

Please show what I’ve said that is factually wrong.

My evidence is that there is 8.8 BILLION dollars unaccounted for in Iraq. Let me repeat that – unaccounted for. This is US Taxpayer money that was paid out – and no one has any idea what it was paid for.

Last year, I accidentally underpaid my taxes by $1.40 – and got a notice from the IRS asking when I was going to send it in.

You tell me if they’re actually being serious, about finding out where our money went.

In other news, O.J. says he’s hot on the trail of Nicole’s real killer.

I’m glad you clarified [see what I bolded]. Sounds like you didn’t want the “removal” of Saddam. Am I inaccurate now?

Jim wrote, “Inexcusable mistakes were made, and continues to be made everyday in the planning of this war.

Do you know who plans wars and excutes them? The Pentagon. There are over a 1,000 different scenarios drawn up and simply presented to the President [whoever is in office]. It sounds like you in your zeal to blame have pegged the wrong party for planning incorrectly. Do you Jim have evidence that Bush micromanaged and changed an existing war plan that was presented to him? Or will you admit that your zeal is causing an obsession that helps you get things wrong?

Jim funnily wrote, “the way military contractors are allowed to pad their bills

Why do the left like to attack/accuse incorrectly with no evidence during a time of war? What evidence do you have that contractors are not being pursued by auditors daily? Your accusation is simply a talking point without merit.

The “feeling” I get from your post is that you care more about the past and accusing and blaming than moving forward. What is your idea for moving forward without mentioning Bush, the administration or anyone in his administration or cabinet? I see great potential for the 24 million Iraqi’s. I see great potential in having two Representative Republics in the Middle East. I wonder why you can’t let go of the past as what is done is done and realize some of the successes along with your dissappointments. A perfect war would be no dead people. I don’t know of anyone who thinks things went perfectly. But I do see people who are overwhelmingly negative (like yourself – just my opinion).

That’s not my wish. What I wish is that we weren’t wasting soldiers’ bodies and lives, and hundreds of billions of dollars there. That’s not worth the removal of a contained and disarmed dictator, when we’re already fighting a war in Afghanistan on top of it.

That’s fine. That’s a valid opinion. But he isn’t in power and we aren’t going back in time. Are you going to be stuck on this issue for another 3 years and just be mad that we disposed of Saddam? Why?

Because I want accountability. Inexcusable mistakes were made, and continues to be made everyday in the planning of this war, the funding of it, the supplying of the soldiers who fight it, the way military contractors are allowed to pad their bills, etc. etc. – and we’re supposed to just forget about it, rather than hold someone accountable?

The first stage of fixing a mistake, is admitting the mistake. Until the Bush administration gets there, and at least fires Rumsfeld for his gross incompetence in the prosecution of this war, our situation in Iraq will only continue to get worse.

Is it ok Jim that others have a different opinion and are happy that Saddam has been disposed of and the country is free and women can learn and vote?

Sure it is ok with me that others have a different opinion. It is also my duty to argue against opinions which I feel are unfounded in facts, and which are allowing some in our nation to continue to blind themselves to the horrible reality of our situation.

Some ideologically uncomfortbale history for you: We in the US *put* Saddam in power, and sold him military arms which he used to oppress his country. Bush Sr. even stopped the UN from censuring Saddam when he gassed his people – because he was our ally.

The only reason Saddam was removed, is he stopped doing what we told him. Our government could care less what he did to his peasants – that’s just the latest in a series of moving goalposts.

I’m sorry if this hurts your opinion. If you think I’m wrong, please prove me wrong with facts.

JT inaccurately wrote, “I see Baklava has not addressed any of the points made by “Larry”.

I chose one to address and I guess you missed it

Will you address it?

Your third paragraph (besides being unneccessary) tried to characterize how I think/feel and you are off the mark badly. And… I’m more qualified to talk about how I feel/think than you are so you set yourself up for failure. It’s a poor debate tactic on your part. You only show your own failings to understand someone else’s point of view.

I’d like to see your answer. I’ll come back to see.

Bak, “JT” won’t be returning. –ST

Jim’s second paragraph sounds like he wishes that Saddam were still in power. That’s fine. That’s a valid opinion. But he isn’t in power and we aren’t going back in time. Are you going to be stuck on this issue for another 3 years and just be mad that we disposed of Saddam? Why?

Do you recognize that others have a differing opinion than yours on that subject? Is it ok Jim that others have a different opinion and are happy that Saddam has been disposed of and the country is free and women can learn and vote?

In case you are confused, here is the question again:
What formal declaration did the U.N. make Steve saying the war was illegal? Link it !!!

Now you’ve made an additional incorrect statements you should back up:
Show us all the text/law by the U.N. that states what you stated about preemptive – we’ll be here waiting.

BTW, Did Afghanistan attack us? Did Yugoslavia? The answers are no and you have egg on your face with every post but dont’ know it.