in the wrong era. Soundly refuting
liberals online since 2000.
| Free Beacon | 0 | |
| AP | 0 | |
| Power Line | 0 | |
| B’berg | 2012 Watch: Gingrich Seeks to Ease Fundraising Woes as Las Vegas Checks Slowing Down |
0 |
| The Hill | Scandal: Pelosi might have skirted House ethics rules on campaign solicitations |
0 |
Audacity of Truth
Gaffetastic:
Vice President Joe Biden had his “oops” moment Wednesday speaking in a 49er-crazed SF when he told a crowd at a city political fundraiser that “the Giants are on their way to the Super Bowl.” - SF Chronicle, 1-18-12
Buckley’s been a skeptic on Iraq for some time
Conservative icon and NRO Editor William F. Buckley, Jr. created quite a stir last week when he came out and essentially said we’ve lost in Iraq. The popular sentiment seemed to be that he, as a staunch conservative, was a strong supporter of the Iraq war who had resigned himself to the belief that we’d lost there.
Ramesh Ponnuru at NRO reminds everyone that Buckley has been a skeptic of the Iraq war for quite some time:
William F. Buckley Jr. has been skeptical about the Iraq venture for some time. Two years ago he said that if he had known before the war that Saddam Hussein had no WMD, he would have opposed the war. The mosque bombing appears to have been the final straw for him. He now says that it is beyond doubt that “the American objective in Iraq has failed.” It is time for an “acknowledgment of defeat.”
This is a refinement and extension of Bill’s position in response to new circumstances. It’s not a case in which a full-throated supporter of the war turned on it and came out for an immediate withdrawal. He wasn’t a full-throated supporter of the war, and he hasn’t (yet?) come out for immediate withdrawal. Still, his pronouncement strikes me as important (even allowing for the bias that comes from working in the House of Buckley).
I myself think that Bill’s conclusion is premature. It could very well be vindicated by events, although obviously I hope it won’t be.
In other words, the lefties who are trying to spin this as being the same as Howard Dean’s position on the Iraq war are incorrect. Howard Dean was never a supporter of the Iraq war from the word go. Buckley’s position has gradually changed over time. It wasn’t a case of going directly from staunch support to believing we lost.
Others blogging about this: Captain Ed, Mark Noonan at Blogs For Bush, Flopping Aces, Decision ’08 (preachin’ to the lefty “Bush supporters are cultists” whiners – heh), UNCoRRELATED, Below The Beltway
Related Toldjah So post:
RSS feed for comments on this post.
83 Responses to “Buckley’s been a skeptic on Iraq for some time”
Comments
Blogads
Disclaimer: The views expressed on this blog do not necessarily reflect those of ST's advertisers, nor do their opinions necessarily reflect ST's. Island of Misfit Bloggers
Stats
GBA says, “We went there to steal the oil. Oil is power. Stolen oil allows oil companies to post record profits at the expense of you and I.”
Tell me GBA, how much Oil has been stolen from Iraq?
How much have we “taken”?
Give me some proof.
Because even when we were having a crisis, we got a majority of the oil from Russia to help us.
*shakes head sadly*
I didn’t think you would be one of “those” types that think we went to war for oil.
GBA incorrectly says, “It has been almost three years. And we have rebuilt almost nothing. “
And that is what you get, this type of WRONG and INCORRECT information, when you listen to the MSM all the time. Your a fool if you think nothing has been done there.
GBA begins to loose it by saying, “We bomb indiscriminately and then offer to buy our victims “wheelchairs” as a gesture of good will. What makes you think that Abu al Zarqawi even exist?”
Your kidding right?
Cause your begging to sound like Steve now.
Bombing indescriminately? One of the major complaints about the war was that we held back, we were too careful and it dragged out. We took extreme precautions in not targetting civilians, even when the terrorists use them as shields and hostages. You sure your talking about the rgith side and confuse the US troops with the terrorists? Its a common mistake to think the troops are terrorists by the way.
GBA earns the whacko nut job award with saying this, “We went there promising to free them of a sadist who used torture, rape and murder to centralize his power. Instead we tortured, raped and murdered to centralize our power.”
So your saying the troops are over there torturing, raping and murdering Iraqis hmmm?
Jumping of the DEEP END without your waterwings can lead to drowning.
GBA finally comes out hinting at Halliburton by saying, “But it’s not nearly as profitable for Mr. Bushs’ and Mr. Cheneys’ buddies. We could have let the Iraqis have control of their own oil. We did not have to steal it.”
There we have it, we went to war for oil and Halliburton. Skin has been shed and true colors have come through.
The moon is full and the bats are out of the belfry.
Bang,
There is nothing more powerful and righteous than the truth.
What you are talking about is a perception war of based on the proliferation of lies. They lie and twist the truth. We lie right back and twist the truth.
That is flawed in it’s reasoning right from the word go. You can’t foster good will with lies.
This is strange to some because it is obvious that ill-will can be fostered with lies. Religious zealots have done this evil. We must undo it with truth.
Everyones mother here will probably agree with the statement that “two wrongs don’t make a right”.
We need to be above board if we are to prevail. I just hope it’s not too late to come clean.
All you got to do is look at the recent riots over the mosque bombings Bak and you’ll start to figure out once our military precence is diminished enough various factions in Iraq are going to be at each others throats. it is as easy to figure out as 2+2=4
GBA LIED by saying, “It has been almost three years. And we have rebuilt almost nothing. ”
This is a habitual pattern on your part. You act like there is budget cuts when social and entitlement progams and education and veterans programs have ALL increased over the years. You act like there is no rebuilding.
New water treatment plant
Yes, look at the mosque bombing.
Who was the mahor players in calming that?
I don’t think it was the military.
I know it was the Iraqis.
Hang on Sanity,
You just dropped a bomb on me. It is going to take me a while to read all of this. But I will certainly give you the respect of reading all of it. I would only hope that you would offer me the same respect.
Lets see, if we went to war for oil for Halliburton, wouldn’t have been easier ot just give all the billions spent on rebuilding and the war directly to Halliburton?
Its all about making Halliburton money right?
Love how they still say it is Cheneys comapny, Cheney and Bushes ‘friends’. Realizing of course Lady Byrd (D) has controlling interest in Halliburton.
By the way, record oil rpofits is because there are more drivers, and more people driving.
Want to socket to the Oil companies? Walk to work.
- GBA is a joke, and in bad need of some professional help. He claims to be a business owner. If so, and his posts are any indication of his mental state, I fear for the welfare of his employees.
- Aside from that, if hes just the usual lefty attention whore, he needs some new material. Even the Kos Kiddies have stopped floating the “WE DID IT FOR THE OIL” babble, finally realizing it looks a bit stupid in the face of Fuel prices these days. That and they got tired of people just outright laughing at them every time they said it.
- Bang
New irrigation pump
Military Hospital
Sewer system
Electricity
baklava
Wow!
A whopping four projects.
Actually we have done alot than this but given the size and magnitude of the destruction it’s a drop in the bucket because we promised alot more and they expected alot more.
Given the fact that we have been there for years I am not nearly as impressed as you are.
This is the greatest industrialized nation in the world and this is the best we can do?
We have certainly spent enough money to rebuild that entire country. So why is it not rebuit yet?
BTW it’s a “maternity” hospital not a military hospital.
Here is a a bit more:
Link
Rebuilding Iraq a big, slow job
Under constant threat of sabotage, up to 200 U.S. companies are hard at work patching a nation together.
Link
Rebuilding of Iraq: Status of Funding and Reconstruction.
Link (PDF Format)
Additional Contractor information here
Ok, with that I am going to go fall on my face and die for a few hours.
I pulled a 12 hour shift throughout the night, and got home, got the kids up adn fed and let wife sleep in. At this point I have now been up about 20 hrs, 2nd day in a row.
So I bid thee farewell and well rejoin and read when I have the keyboard marks off my forehead.
GBA wrote without much regards for perspective, “Wow! A whopping four projects”
I could spoon feed you the over a hundred more or you could apologize for your original claim, ““It has been almost three years. And we have rebuilt almost nothing. “
GBA again with his defeatism said, “This is the greatest industrialized nation in the world and this is the best we can do?
Again. Why don’t you stick your face over there with your name and address on it and tell these people this. I just don’t understand your very negative attitude. It doesn’t help. You are the problem not the people working to make things better. Tell me how you could be the solution with your negativism and lack of perspective. You are the one who made the initial claim that you are backing off of.
I’m not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Are you trying to make us feel bad about all that we are doing even though progress is being made because GBA sitting there typing on his keyboard thinks we should’ve done more by now. Sheesh. Now reconcile with your OTHER LIES that we pointed out and quit with your pattern. It’s terrible. It does nothing for anyone.
baklava,
Read the Teguba report.
You like numbers. Check out the spending.
We’re in Iraq. The least we could do is do a good job. The miltary is doing a fine job. It’s the administration that is corrupt and inefficient. Private miltary contrators(mercenaries) and sadistic intelligence operatives are not helping us in Iraq or anywhere else.
I find it a hell of a position to be morally as an American. Almost every American supports the military. But many Americans don’t trust the leadership. It’s a quagmire.
If you have hundreds of examples of completed projects in Iraq. Then bring them on. I always apologize when I am proven wrong.
I even read your suggestion of Michael Medved. I strongly disagree with alot of what he says but I checked it his whole site at your request.
GBA is just like every other moonbat leftie, if it isn’t utopia, it isn’t good enough. Only GBA adds, if Bush did it or touched it, it is bad.
bang,
hey pal. If you want to come visit me at my shop, you are more than welcome. I’ll even pick you up at the airport. I run a good business and I am proud of it.I love to show it off.
You think I’m nuts? Baklava is the Arabic word for nuts.
You want my address an telephone? I would be glad to give it to you. You don’t even have to give me yours. I am without fear of you or anyone else.
You want to threaten me?
If that is your best I am unimpressed.
- No one I know of has “threatened you” GBA. Unless calling you out on your siditious bloviating against all things American is “threatening you”.
- Childish tantrums is the last refuge of cowens, or didn’t your mommy ever teach you that. Grow up.
- Bang
GBA, I did read the Teguba report. Where in there did it say, “we tortured, raped and murdered to centralize our power.
It’s like saying. We “targeted” journalists. Sure there were jounalists killed but you turn it into an irresponsible “targeting” type accusation by saying we tortured, murdered, raped to centralize our power. That would mean that it was institutionalized plan of strategy to centralize our power. Where is your evidence GBA that we had such a plan. You have none. You continue with our list of inaccurate accusations. When you are called on it you attack us. You have no backup for your ridiculous claims. The people who did do wrong are being prosecuted and were being prosecuted before the media got a hold of it. That’s institutionalized discipline for people committing wrongful acts.
GBA wrote, “I always apologize when I am proven wrong.
Then stop being lazy, change your sources of misinformation and stop making reckless irresponsible charges that can’t be backed up with fact. My job is NOT to dispute all of your false allegations. I did enough disputing for you to know that you were WAY off base. You are being told so and in spite of it you are asking for 100′s more links. You are lazy and irresponsible in that case.
Baklava,
I am on it. I just got off the phone with Theresa Shope from the State Department. She is in Iraq right now. She is going to send me all the links and information I need tomorrow or late tonight. It’s nighttime there and I think I interrupted her dinner.
We’ll see then what is what. And it will be definitive. Straight from the source.
So keep your pants on. At least until then. If you want her phone number you can call her too.
Theresa Shope, Iraq Reconstruction Management Office shopetr@state.gov (914) 360-3777
- Well if the left is depending on a civil war in Iraq, they better hope it happens soon. Zarqawi’s chief aide just got nailed in Ramadi, along with a dozen others, by Iraqi militia no less. If hes actually in Iraq his days are numbered.
- Bang
Oh good. Maybe you should let her know some of the irresponsible comments you’ve made here. Will you do that?
Baklava,
I already told her about our discussion.
Why do you think she is going out of her way to help me with the facts?
According to her the question is complicated because of interagency projects. USACE, USAID, IMF, World Bank and NGOs’ all have projects going on. She even stated that they have a massive amount of projects in the works. And what is completed does not fairly represent what is being done. I said that “it has been nearly three years” and she said “I know”. She then also stated that there is a trend to directly contract with Iraqis given the past experiences and cost overruns with non-Iraqi contractors. She also said and I quote” 2006 is going to be banner year for Iraq, it will be a shining example for the region”.
So I had that discussion with her.
So I think I need to apologize for my statement about the reconstruction efforts in Iraq in advance. So I am sorry for that statement. But even with that the accounting does not match the progress.
Saddam never said why he did what he did to the Iraqi people either. But we all know why he did it. Human rights atrocities are not something to be proud enough to document. Who is going to stand up and say I am proud of committing crimes against humanity? That’s a poor argument on that one. All of the individuals that we have prosecuted have all contended that they were acting under orders. Even that Welshofer fellow said the same thing when he killed a uniformed Iraqi Air Force general in October of 2003. He was aquitted even after admitting he killed him by deliberately suffocating him.
It has been my observation that fighting terrorism by using terroristic tactics does not work very well. I think it makes things worse than they need to be.
I would love to forward her email to you baklava when I get it.
GBA said, “I already told her about our discussion.”
You said that you stated, “It has been almost three years. And we have rebuilt almost nothing. We bomb indiscriminately”
It doesn’t sound like you did. It wouldn’t take but a second to scoff at that.
I am amused that you had your defeatist language with her saying, “I said that “it has been nearly three years” It takes longer to build one bridge in America most times. It’s a lack of perspective I say and it doesn’t help anyone for you to be spouting off like that.
I just got to your apology, “So I think I need to apologize for my statement about the reconstruction efforts in Iraq in advance. So I am sorry for that statement. But even with that the accounting does not match the progress. ”
You continue with your defeatism however and your other irresponsible statements still stand.
And you continue with another horrible implication, “It has been my observation that fighting terrorism by using terroristic tactics does not work very well.
Who are you accusing my responsible friend? Is there someone that isn’t being prosecuted that should be? Let us know so that we can forward on the evidence that a soldier of ours is terrorizing and not being held accountable.
GBA wrote, “I would love to forward her email to you baklava when I get it.
It’d take a whole year of being responsible on your part before I give you my email address. Call it the sleeper cell technique for you if you want.
Baklava,
I could care less about your position now. You obviously have no desire to be reasonable. It only takes 5 minutes to set up an email account on yahoo.
Yes. I am indeed critical of hows and whys of what we are doing in Iraq. So are alot of other people. We want honest oversight and transparency in the accounting. I don’t want to hear that our people are doing anything that would reflect negatively on our country. That means anything..torture, hate speech, horseplay…anything. Nor do I think we should stay for one day more than we absolutely have to.
No desire to be reasonable? What do I have to do? Accept the irresponsible claims you made or meet you halfway? You made IRRESPONSIBLE claims and you should completely back down on them and apologize. A number of them. Only one had to do with nothing rebuilt. The others were about torture, rape, murder to centralize power, and stealing their oil.
BTW, I have a yahoo account. You missed my point. You would be one person I wouldn’t give it to.
GBA wrote, “Nor do I think we should stay for one day more than we absolutely have to.
Who does think we should stay longer than we have to?
- More feckless “strawmen” Bak. Don’t waste your time with this crap.
- The left went down the wrong path from the very beginning when they decided to go with the “we’re not Bush” theme. Very quickly people noticed they had no coguent plan/alternatives. That last one is just the tip of the “demonizing iceburg” the left continues to engage in.
- Of course we evil “neocons” desire to stay in Iraq as long as possible.
- This sort of irresponsible propaganda is why they go largely ignored these days.
- Bang
baklava,
Are you implying that we have not engaged in torture, rape and murder?
Are you implying that the Iraqis are not missing any oil or oil revenues?
I can give those links right now if you want. No blog opinions, no op/eds pieces. Only government and mainstream sources. Anytime you want them. Just let me know.
I was implying that if you wanted to view that email you could set up a new account to protect your anonymity.
I don’t lie and when I am wrong I say so. I remember once we had a discussion about tax revenue. I sent you the info and you ignored the facts. That too was straight from the government. I am fallable….are you?
GBA asked, “Are you implying that we have not engaged in torture, rape and murder?”
No.
GBA asked, “Are you implying that the Iraqis are not missing any oil or oil revenues?”
No.
GBA, I am saying that your statements:
1) “We went there to steal the oil.”
2) “And we have rebuilt almost nothing.”
3) “We bomb indiscriminately”
4) “What makes you think that Abu al Zarqawi even exist?”
5) “we tortured, raped and murdered to centralize our power.”
… are irresponsible and reckless
GBA wrote, “I don’t lie and when I am wrong I say so. I remember once we had a discussion about tax revenue. I sent you the info and you ignored the facts.
I saw it the other way around. There is ALWAYS restructuring so that a liberal can say see see see this program is being cut. But you my friend is who ignored. I showed you that EVERY segment of the budget increased including:
1) Veterans benefits
2) Health (including Medicaid and Medicare)
3) Education
4) Environmental
You failed to recognize that EVERY segment of the budget has had huge increases and despite the CLAIMS (irresponsible accusations) of the left, the budget is not shrinking and hasn’t shrunk for any general budget item. Period. End of statement. Black and White.
It isn’t a matter of being fallable or infallable as we all make mistakes. It’s a matter of a continued pattern of leveling incorrect accusations on your part. It is irresponsible and you should learn to stop doing so. Now, I can’t control you and you can’t control me, but I will point out to you that you are making FALSE allegations and it is a continued pattern on your part. You’ve had to back down on a number of them and you don’t like backing down so now you are lashing out. Why not just apologize for the lot of them. Why did you just with a wipe of the hand just disregard Heritage Foundation’s figures that came from the U.S. Treasury and Congressional Budget Office? Why do you keep making irresponsible charges during a time of war? Nobody is saying that prisoners weren’t harmed. What we are saying is that your statement which included the word I bolded (to centralize our power) implies an institutional raping, murdering, torturing and it just isn’t true. We “institutionalized” discipline of soldiers who engaged in wrongful acts.
Victor Davis Hanson says, “After visiting the country, I think we can and will win, but just as importantly, unlike in 2003-4, there does not seem to be much of anything we should be doing there that in fact we are not.
“if it isn’t utopia then it is not good enough”; Why settle? “the Left wants a civil war”, untrue. What the Left wants is Peace and no more death. Peace
baklava,
I sent you the original data from the U.S. Treasury and Congressional Budget Office for the past eight years. You ignored the data. And are now claiming credence of an opinion from the Heritage Foundation.
And you said tax revenues had increased by 14%. That means total reciepts. It means the bottomline. The fact of the matter is that reciepts did not increase by 14% during any of the last eight years. The facts are derived from the data. But who needs raw data when you have the Heritage Foundation to form your opinions for you?
I can’t restructure reality. I am not God.
And just for arguments sake I will concede that although we were discriminate and unbelievably careful and compassionate in our target selection we accidently killed over 20,000 women and children and maimed and wounded thousands more during the first 90 days of combat. I can get you photos of how careful we were if you like.
Another concession. No proof on Zarqawi either dead or alive. Eyewitness say he was killed in early 2003. He has never been seen since. But he is often blamed for many terrorist acts. I personally think he’s an phantom used for propaganda. We use him….they use him. Eyewitnesses….who needs them. But if you say he exist he must. I bet you even know where all of the secret Islamic websites are that the Pentagon is always sourcing are.
The Iraqis’ have alot of missing cash and oil. Are you saying that the Iraqis pulled up to oil wells in the south of Iraq that were under our guard and then secretly hijacked an oil tanker to go into the gulf and steal oil from themselves at Iraqi offshore oil platforms occupied by Navy SEALs until late May 2003? Perhaps they stole their own cash by secretly taking it from Paul Bremers office that was guarded by the US Marines?
Why do you think we tortured,raped and murdered people in our custody? It’s not like we only did it in Iraq. We did the same thing other places too. Is this just a coincidence? Luck of the draw? An anomaly that happens everywhere we go perhaps? This was not isolated behavior according to the Teguba report. This was a directive according to all of the accused. They must be liars too…every last one of them.
You’re too smart me. I give up! You win!
You are probably the smarter then Buckley too.Nobody is as smart as you are.I am wrong and you are always right as usual. I don’t know what I was thinking. Please forgive me. Edited. -ST
Steve, you don’t want peace, you want socialistic anarchy.
I really don’t mean to sound like old rodney…but I gotta say, this isn’t constructive debate. It’s destructive bickering. We truely represent our government and our government truely represents us.
I agree.