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	<title>Comments on: Once upon a time, some Democrats were opposed to Slaughter-like solutions</title>
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	<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/</link>
	<description>Don&#039;t dis or dismiss this miss!</description>
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		<title>By: The Strident Conservative</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782734</link>
		<dc:creator>The Strident Conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sistertoldjah.com/?p=22016#comment-782734</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Damn The Constitution, Full Speed Ahead! &#8211; Part Deux...&lt;/strong&gt;

Progressives have never been big fans of our nation&#8217;s founding document due to the pesky little way it interferes with their Marxist-leaning objectives. This has never been as clear as it has with the Obamacare hijacking of America&#8217;s health...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Damn The Constitution, Full Speed Ahead! &#8211; Part Deux&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Progressives have never been big fans of our nation&#8217;s founding document due to the pesky little way it interferes with their Marxist-leaning objectives. This has never been as clear as it has with the Obamacare hijacking of America&#8217;s health&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782655</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Very interesting review Simon, thanks for your insight. I was wondering how the court might treat this and on what cases it might be based, but I don&#039;t have the time or access to cases to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting review Simon, thanks for your insight. I was wondering how the court might treat this and on what cases it might be based, but I don&#8217;t have the time or access to cases to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave B</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782618</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>There is one other difference with the current situation. The citizenry won&#039;t give a rat&#039;s ass whether or not the Democrats vote for the actual bill or whether they vote to &quot;deem&quot; that it passed. As a matter of fact I believe that it will exacerbate the situation for the Democrats in 2010. Nobody&#039;s going to buy that they &quot;didn&#039;t&quot; vote for the bill that completely changed the landscape of our Republic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is one other difference with the current situation. The citizenry won&#8217;t give a rat&#8217;s ass whether or not the Democrats vote for the actual bill or whether they vote to &#8220;deem&#8221; that it passed. As a matter of fact I believe that it will exacerbate the situation for the Democrats in 2010. Nobody&#8217;s going to buy that they &#8220;didn&#8217;t&#8221; vote for the bill that completely changed the landscape of our Republic.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782603</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 01:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sistertoldjah.com/?p=22016#comment-782603</guid>
		<description>Steve, I agree, and as I said, I support treating them as such. &lt;a href=&quot;http://stubbornfacts.us/law/the_presumption_of_constitutionality&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;strong&gt;I&#039;ve been beating this drum for a while&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;. ;)

As to whether the courts are likely to do anything, &lt;i&gt;Public Citizen&lt;/i&gt; looks to the enrolled bill rule, and I think that the court may well hew to it as a general rule. &lt;i&gt;Munoz-Flores&lt;/i&gt; illustrates the limits of the rule, however. There, although Justice Scalia advocated reliance on the enrolled bill rule, the court was willing to peel back the curtain and entertain the question of whether the origination clause was offended by the law at issue. The only member of that majority still on the court is Justice Kennedy, but it does show (and might be thought precedent for the proposition) that the enrolled bill rule has limits, particularly when the inquiry can be guided by relatively clear and judicially-manageable standards. In this instance, the constitutional question isn&#039;t clear—not nearly so clear as the critics would have it—so if the court took a case arising from these shenanigans, the court might call it a political question, it might call it a presumption of constitutionality, or (most likely lead by Justice Scalia), it might find the enrolled bill rule the strongest ground for rejecting the challenge. Either way, what I don&#039;t see is the court striking down Obamacare on the basis of the slaughter solution. There will be stronger, better challenges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I agree, and as I said, I support treating them as such. <a href="http://stubbornfacts.us/law/the_presumption_of_constitutionality" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><strong>I&#8217;ve been beating this drum for a while</strong></a>. <img src='http://sistertoldjah.com/smilies/yahoo_wink.gif' alt='&#59;&#41;' class='wp-smiley' width='18' height='18' title='&#59;&#41;' /></p>
<p>As to whether the courts are likely to do anything, <i>Public Citizen</i> looks to the enrolled bill rule, and I think that the court may well hew to it as a general rule. <i>Munoz-Flores</i> illustrates the limits of the rule, however. There, although Justice Scalia advocated reliance on the enrolled bill rule, the court was willing to peel back the curtain and entertain the question of whether the origination clause was offended by the law at issue. The only member of that majority still on the court is Justice Kennedy, but it does show (and might be thought precedent for the proposition) that the enrolled bill rule has limits, particularly when the inquiry can be guided by relatively clear and judicially-manageable standards. In this instance, the constitutional question isn&#8217;t clear—not nearly so clear as the critics would have it—so if the court took a case arising from these shenanigans, the court might call it a political question, it might call it a presumption of constitutionality, or (most likely lead by Justice Scalia), it might find the enrolled bill rule the strongest ground for rejecting the challenge. Either way, what I don&#8217;t see is the court striking down Obamacare on the basis of the slaughter solution. There will be stronger, better challenges.</p>
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		<title>By: steveegg</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782589</link>
		<dc:creator>steveegg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sistertoldjah.com/?p=22016#comment-782589</guid>
		<description>Guess what, Simon.  The elected branches &lt;b&gt;are&lt;/b&gt; unruly children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guess what, Simon.  The elected branches <b>are</b> unruly children.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782570</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sistertoldjah.com/?p=22016#comment-782570</guid>
		<description>Steve, I agree, but the theory behind these cases is that &lt;i&gt;the voters&lt;/i&gt; will ensure that Congress upholds its obligations. (The same theory underpins &lt;i&gt;Chevron&lt;/i&gt; deference in the administrative law context: the agency is accountable to the public via the President.)

The only alternative is a robust, maximalist conception of judicial review that treats the elected branches like unruly children whose homework will be marked by the Court. It&#039;s a vision that I support, because I find the notion that the political branches will follow the Constitution not just unbearably pollyannaish in theory, but falsified in practice. Nevertheless, historically, it hasn&#039;t been one that has been popular with conservative crowds. Your rationale is essentially the premise of &lt;i&gt;Flast v. Cohen&lt;/i&gt;: there has to be judicial review of establishment claims because the political branches can&#039;t be trusted. (Of course, one can accept this premise without accepting the court&#039;s conclusion that the rules must therefore be bent to ensure a supply of litigants.)

John Hart Ely caricatured the tension between the visions of Justices Frankfurter and Black: Frankfurter, the conservative, thought that everything should be reviewed, but lightly, while Black, the liberal textualist, thought that only some things should be reviewed, and with close scrutiny. I tend to side with Black, except that my focus on what should be reviewed is rather different. It seems to me that cases implicating the structural constitution should be reviewed with exacting scrutiny. Unfortunately, the down side is that you tend to produce an uncomfortably powerful and self-assured judiciary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I agree, but the theory behind these cases is that <i>the voters</i> will ensure that Congress upholds its obligations. (The same theory underpins <i>Chevron</i> deference in the administrative law context: the agency is accountable to the public via the President.)</p>
<p>The only alternative is a robust, maximalist conception of judicial review that treats the elected branches like unruly children whose homework will be marked by the Court. It&#8217;s a vision that I support, because I find the notion that the political branches will follow the Constitution not just unbearably pollyannaish in theory, but falsified in practice. Nevertheless, historically, it hasn&#8217;t been one that has been popular with conservative crowds. Your rationale is essentially the premise of <i>Flast v. Cohen</i>: there has to be judicial review of establishment claims because the political branches can&#8217;t be trusted. (Of course, one can accept this premise without accepting the court&#8217;s conclusion that the rules must therefore be bent to ensure a supply of litigants.)</p>
<p>John Hart Ely caricatured the tension between the visions of Justices Frankfurter and Black: Frankfurter, the conservative, thought that everything should be reviewed, but lightly, while Black, the liberal textualist, thought that only some things should be reviewed, and with close scrutiny. I tend to side with Black, except that my focus on what should be reviewed is rather different. It seems to me that cases implicating the structural constitution should be reviewed with exacting scrutiny. Unfortunately, the down side is that you tend to produce an uncomfortably powerful and self-assured judiciary.</p>
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		<title>By: steveegg</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782569</link>
		<dc:creator>steveegg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sistertoldjah.com/?p=22016#comment-782569</guid>
		<description>If there&#039;s no review, there&#039;s no way to ensure Congress upholds its obligation to follow either the rules or the Constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there&#8217;s no review, there&#8217;s no way to ensure Congress upholds its obligation to follow either the rules or the Constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: We&#8217;re Deemed! We&#8217;re Deemed!</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782567</link>
		<dc:creator>We&#8217;re Deemed! We&#8217;re Deemed!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sistertoldjah.com/?p=22016#comment-782567</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;Once upon a time, some Democrats were opposed to Slaughter-like solutions&#8230;and you&amp;#8217... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;Once upon a time, some Democrats were opposed to Slaughter-like solutions&#8230;and you&amp;#8217&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782557</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sistertoldjah.com/?p=22016#comment-782557</guid>
		<description>Steve, &lt;i&gt;Marshall Field&lt;/i&gt; addresses (and &lt;i&gt;Public Citizen applies&lt;/i&gt;; cf. Justice Scalia&#039;s concurrence in &lt;i&gt;Munoz-Flores&lt;/i&gt;) the level of scrutiny that courts will apply to procedural challenges to statutes in litigation, not the Constitution&#039;s requirements for those processes. Think of it as being akin to the political question doctrine—impeachments, for example. &lt;i&gt;Nixon&lt;/i&gt; holds that federal courts will not generally review issues arising from impeachments, but that lack of review doesn&#039;t in any way detract from Congress&#039; obligation to follow the rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, <i>Marshall Field</i> addresses (and <i>Public Citizen applies</i>; cf. Justice Scalia&#8217;s concurrence in <i>Munoz-Flores</i>) the level of scrutiny that courts will apply to procedural challenges to statutes in litigation, not the Constitution&#8217;s requirements for those processes. Think of it as being akin to the political question doctrine—impeachments, for example. <i>Nixon</i> holds that federal courts will not generally review issues arising from impeachments, but that lack of review doesn&#8217;t in any way detract from Congress&#8217; obligation to follow the rules.</p>
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		<title>By: steveegg</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782550</link>
		<dc:creator>steveegg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sistertoldjah.com/?p=22016#comment-782550</guid>
		<description>Two more items from the actual &lt;i&gt;Public Citizen&lt;/i&gt; case:

- The Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, signed the &quot;corrected&quot; enrolled version without sending the correction back to the House for a vote.

- The appellate court cited a case from 1892, &lt;i&gt;Marshall Field &amp; Co. v. Clark&lt;/i&gt;, in which the majority said, &quot;Better, far better, that a provision should occasionally find its way into the statute through mistake, &lt;b&gt;or even fraud&lt;/b&gt;, than that every act . . . should at any and all times be liable to be put in issue and impeached . . . . Such a state of uncertainty in the statute laws of the land would lead to mischiefs absolutely intolerable.&quot; (emphasis added)

Given that both &lt;i&gt;Marshall Field&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Public Citizen&lt;/i&gt; stated that the enrolled version as signed by the leadership of the Houses is the &quot;conclusive&quot; and &quot;unimpeachable&quot; record of what &quot;passed&quot; the Houses of Congress, I&#039;m surprised that Pelosi, Byrd, Obama and Biden are even concerned with votes at all.  After all, once the leadership of Congress is set, if the only accepted word of what was passed is what the Speaker of the House and either the Vice President or the President Pro Tempore of the Senate say was passed, why have a vote at all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two more items from the actual <i>Public Citizen</i> case:</p>
<p>- The Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, signed the &#8220;corrected&#8221; enrolled version without sending the correction back to the House for a vote.</p>
<p>- The appellate court cited a case from 1892, <i>Marshall Field &amp; Co. v. Clark</i>, in which the majority said, &#8220;Better, far better, that a provision should occasionally find its way into the statute through mistake, <b>or even fraud</b>, than that every act . . . should at any and all times be liable to be put in issue and impeached . . . . Such a state of uncertainty in the statute laws of the land would lead to mischiefs absolutely intolerable.&#8221; (emphasis added)</p>
<p>Given that both <i>Marshall Field</i> and <i>Public Citizen</i> stated that the enrolled version as signed by the leadership of the Houses is the &#8220;conclusive&#8221; and &#8220;unimpeachable&#8221; record of what &#8220;passed&#8221; the Houses of Congress, I&#8217;m surprised that Pelosi, Byrd, Obama and Biden are even concerned with votes at all.  After all, once the leadership of Congress is set, if the only accepted word of what was passed is what the Speaker of the House and either the Vice President or the President Pro Tempore of the Senate say was passed, why have a vote at all?</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/03/16/once-upon-a-time-some-democrats-were-opposed-to-slaughter-like-solutions/comment-page-1/#comment-782533</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sistertoldjah.com/?p=22016#comment-782533</guid>
		<description>This meme is rapidly getting out of control, and I can&#039;t understand how. Tapscott is wrong: the &lt;i&gt;Public Citizen&lt;/i&gt; case did &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; challenge a self-executing rule. &lt;a href=&quot;http://openjurist.org/486/f3d/1342/public-citizen-v-united-states-district-court-for-the-district-of-columbia&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Read the case&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;. Heck, read what Tapscott himself posted; it explains, in as many words, what the case is about: the defect complained about was that &quot;the bill that was presented to the President did not first pass both chambers of Congress in the exact same form. In particular, Public Citizen contends that the statute’s enactment did not comport with the bicameral passage requirement of Article I, Section 7 of the Constitution, because the version of the legislation that was presented to the House contained a clerk’s error with respect to one term, so the House and Senate voted on slightly different versions of the bill and the President signed the version passed by the Senate.&quot; That is a totally different issue to the instant question, which is how the House shall vote on the bill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This meme is rapidly getting out of control, and I can&#8217;t understand how. Tapscott is wrong: the <i>Public Citizen</i> case did <i>not</i> challenge a self-executing rule. <a href="http://openjurist.org/486/f3d/1342/public-citizen-v-united-states-district-court-for-the-district-of-columbia" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><strong>Read the case</strong></a>. Heck, read what Tapscott himself posted; it explains, in as many words, what the case is about: the defect complained about was that &#8220;the bill that was presented to the President did not first pass both chambers of Congress in the exact same form. In particular, Public Citizen contends that the statute’s enactment did not comport with the bicameral passage requirement of Article I, Section 7 of the Constitution, because the version of the legislation that was presented to the House contained a clerk’s error with respect to one term, so the House and Senate voted on slightly different versions of the bill and the President signed the version passed by the Senate.&#8221; That is a totally different issue to the instant question, which is how the House shall vote on the bill.</p>
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